Podcast: Interview with Nick Dunse of Shuttle Global Payments

Join as we chat with Nick Dunse from Shuttle Global Payments about global payment processing, personal security, the future of digital currencies and creative sales strategies.

Luis: Welcome to the Sendlio podcast. My name is Louis and we're here with Nick Dunse of Shuttle Global Payments. How are you doing?

Nick: Yeah, great. It's great to be here guys. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Luis: All right, well tell us a little bit about yourself and where you’re coming from.

Nick: So I'm based in London in the UK. Uh... it's the weather is not great, but hey, it's picking up. We're in a fast moving world with the pandemic still going on here, but you know, we're all, we're all doing well. Fortunately in our industry with payments, things have been not too tough. So yeah, I've been working, gosh, I'm getting pretty old now, 20 odd years, always in like digital roles. Um you know, leadership roles. The last little while working a lot with SAAS, um typically, you know marketing or communications, that kind of world... strategy. Um So that's been my bag. But I look after, I guess what you call nowadays, revenue, rev ops or Chief Revenue Officer for Shuttle.

Brandon: Nice. So um I guess like in Europe you guys have to deal with G. D. P. R., and all that fun stuff. Um Like what does, what does that mean? Like you know when GDP came about, what does that mean for you guys in the payments space and how do you handle, like, all of the requirements around that?

Nick: Yeah, I mean, I guess no one really knows what it means, but we pretend that we do. You know, it's really important and it's effectively the practices have been around for a while now across Europe, and I mean really, in the payments space. It depends what part of the payment space you're working in. But when you're dealing with payments, you're dealing with, like, the card industry and other requirements as well as G. D. P. R. But G. D. P. R. is a lot about how you store and use personal data. So, you know if you've got a consumer facing business and you're collecting card information as well as personal information, you know, you've got to have some pretty strict processes for how you look after personal data, how you respect people's personal data, and how they want to be communicated with. You know, so like in the U. S. you can have an option on a form for... you can have an opt out for a form, whereas you've got to have an opt in for the form... for like a newsletter in europe. So yeah, there's some more stringent processes but certainly if you're dealing with payments and card data probably those kinds of processes are more strict than the G. D. P. R. stuff to be honest. But it's all about personal data. Yeah.

Brandon: Yeah we were talking about a little while ago, how it's weird how with all the different countries around the world there's different sorts of... different providers are available in different countries, and how, you know, technically speaking there's not really a reason for that to be the case right? That it's all around these regulations and laws that prevent that. You know why can you not have a Paypal account in Kosovo? Right?

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Well I mean I saw today in the news that, you know, there's a move for a global tax rate for businesses and it really kind of falls into that kind of bucket, you know. Globalisation happens. I remember studying it at school. And, like, this is... the internet has been around for a while now and yet, we haven't figured out how do we actually legislate and control how companies work across the globe? So yeah, I mean it's changing times, but yeah,

Brandon: What are some challenges with, you know, offering payment services globally? Like Shuttle Global, that's kind of you know what you guys do, right, you connect to all of these different providers around the world and allow merchants to use what one API for all of these different providers.

Nick: Yeah. Right. So we're actually targeting software companies and by in effect their merchants. So you know, we were helping software companies effectively have that infrastructure and that tool set that enables their merchants, their customers to sell stuff to sell stuff around the world. And more importantly, from our point of view, the software vendors to actually acquire customers globally as well. Because I mean, then what's the point of having a cloud piece of software and you're restricted to one country to acquire customers? Like if you've got payments as a feature, why can't you go and acquire customers around the world? And so like that's one of the problems that we solve, um you know, being able, enabling a software company to go and acquire a global customer set, obviously therefore increasing their revenue because they can acquire more customers. Um and then all of the technical bits and the local legislation that might be in play with that kind of stuff. Um Yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, we've got the tech, it's just some of those processes and rules and governance haven't caught up.

Brandon: So like the 3D secure stuff?

Nick: Yeah, so that's a big thing in Europe, right? So um and to be honest, it's been a it's been a mess, but it's landed now and it and it's it's being, you know, it's in play, so if you're an end customer, you might get a 3D secure challenge on your screen or your phone just to verify that it's you you're actually making this transaction and you've got to supply a couple of bits of data. The phone makes it a bit easier because obviously if you can use your fingerprint, the biometric stuff is good. A lot faster. Europe is trying to create, I guess they would say processes and structures and governance that is actually ultimately freeing and helpful. But the tech’s got to work with that, and the payment companies, and everyone in between has got to work with that for it to actually result in the objectives that they're hoping for.

Luis: Let me ask you, let me switch gears a little bit so in the space that you're in you deal, I'm sure, with a lot of fraud. There's a ton of issues when it comes to credit card payments with that. Is there any, like, tips that you could give to business owners when they're starting off that they can, I don't know, basic things that they could do to help themselves protect themselves against some of that.

Nick: Yeah, it's not an area that I'm an expert in, and we typically, like, push those kinds of things off to the uh either the payment service provider or, you know, those third party fraud companies. And then there's more of those sort of third party companies springing up now. But yeah, I mean, are you asking from a software and the point of view, are you asking from, like, an end consumer point of view?

Luis: Just end consumer point of view I guess.

Nick: Yeah. I mean it's the basics right? It's it's I mean I heard the other day I saw and linked in the other day uh somewhat a connection of mine, his daughter, she got her bank account emptied by fraud because she gave away some details. So you've got you've got to keep your personal details safe and you'll be surprised how many people don't do that. You know, you shouldn't be writing down any of these details anywhere. You don't want to have the same password pins and all of that stuff. Says the guy who has the same pin for his phone card and Netflix account but…  that's not true by the way.

Brandon: All those friends who share his Netflix account now…

Nick: They can also empty my bank account. But I think you know a lot of the stuff is just basic, like it's just being careful around how you're storing that information. And it's generational as well though. I think older generations are typically more inclined to write things down, share things freely, post them in, like, Whatsapp, you know, all of these or insecure connections, you know those things can be hacked, just don't do any of that stuff. Make sure that you're always using a secure web connection. So if you get the little triangle error up in that chrome browser then don’t put your card details in. 

Brandon: I saw I saw a reddit thread the other day and somebody was like, hey everybody in this sub let's find our birthday partners, what's your birthday? And like hundreds of people were just like, oh yeah, this is my birthday. And so that's mine too. What year? Right? It's just like...

Nick: and what/s your mother's maiden name. 

Luis: What city were you born in?

Nick: What was your first pet?

Brandon: Yeah. Well yeah, man, just collect all of this stuff though. It's crazy how people just willingly just throw that out there. You know? It's uh… I mean people, I think most people are kind of sketched out about their social security number, their credit card number, you know? And I've actually seen a lot of people who are really sketched out about their, like, routing number and checking account number even though it's on a check that you would, like, hand to the person at the grocery store and stuff. But uh but yeah, I've seen a lot of that stuff, just people putting it out online, like there's surveys, um the surveys on social media, right? The like you know, find out which Disney character you are, then they ask you like 30 questions about, like, you know, how many family members you have and like...

Nick: yeah, I mean fun as filling in those Disney surveys is I you know, I personally would just stay clear of some of that because you don't know who you are, who you are giving it away to, right? And you know, I still throw away like bank statements into the bin, into the trash. And so some of that information if you went through my trash you could probably hack into some of my stuff. But we've just got to be super cautious these days. I mean if you just have to watch that first series of what was it? Uh… no not I Robot. What was the Amazon one with Rami Malik? Totally forgotten what it’s called.

Brandon: Mr. Robot

Nick: Mr Robot. Yeah. I mean these guys just get into like facebook accounts and totally steal people's information pretty easily.

Luis: But you don't have a shredder for your documents though? That's like.... like that's... I'm from Miami. So we shred all our documents. 

Nick: Yeah. Even my mum was saying you know you need to get a shredder. So

Luis: That’s all paranoia.

Brandon: Man, I judged a hackathon a few years back and there was a kid there who had this, uh, it was like an RFID. Project or something. I'm not sure what the actual technology was that he was using but he basically like used an Arduino and like done all this stuff to, uh, If you were standing you know within like five feet of him, uh, with an android phone, he could download all your contacts and like see what apps you had on and stuff like that. It's pretty creepy. Um Yeah, standing next to somebody and they can pull all that stuff down.

Nick: Yeah, so I guess I guess the answer your question is, just like, you just got to be sensible and cautious. Like there is, there's no reason not to be overly cautious. Sadly you've got to think the worst of people.

Luis: Well, you know, it's like right now, I think in every which way we're having to be overly cautious, right? I mean you're on the other side of the ocean, so you guys are a little bit more strict. I'm in Georgia where it's like party time now apparently. 

Nick: Really? 

Luis: Oh my God, they just opened up restaurants for full capacity

Nick: Wow

Luis: And there was never not full capacity by the way, the whole time, so I just, you know. Yeah, so we'll see how it's gonna be fun.

Brandon: Yeah, here there's something going around,

Luis: It’s like a cold or something.

Nick: Yeah, I mean it's just depending apparently which you know, variant you get you might be fine. Well, we're doing, I mean depending on whether you're an anti vax, uh skeptical or what, but, like, we've vaccinated 31 million people or something in the UK now. So we are pretty… we're doing pretty well. Yeah, which is great for getting things moving again, hopefully. 

Luis: Has this affected your business? What have you seen as far as, like, in the payment space with... how has Covid affected that?

Nick: Yeah, I think I think there are two things. One is the general, obviously there's been a general trend for having to do things online, sell and buy online, so that's great. We can help with that stuff. We're kind of on the gravy train of that trend, which is, which is great. But at the same time we still have to do sales, we have to, you know, we're selling to software companies typically, and so if you're doing an outbound sales process and you want to get hold of someone, they're not in the office, then they might be, you know, homeschooling their kids. So they're just harder to get through to. People have got people who want to do less chats online or video calls. So the whole, that whole side of the business we've had to get a lot more creative with, which I don't mind actually. But I think the other side is that it's forced a lot of businesses to push stuff online, which is good. And I think a lot of the highly consumable stuff, there's no reason why we shouldn't just buy online. If you want to go and have a high street shopping experience or a shopping experience in the mall, then those brands have got those brick and mortar stores are now required to make that way more interesting, which is great. You know, pick up all that consumable stuff online, have a great outdoor experience in the store.

Luis: Right, right, so it's all about audience experience now.

Nick: I think so. I think so. I mean, we're not so much with the in store, but as a consumer, you know, I don't want to go to a... I'm not really interested in going to a Walmart type, or Costco type store and buying stuff. I can just get all that online, especially in the UK when it's a relatively small country, easy logistics and get all that, have it delivered to me by the time I get home. But you know, if I want to go and try on some new sneakers, check out exactly what the color of white is. I want to go into the store and walk around in them. You know.

Luis: It's interesting because I think the restaurant industry is going in that direction too. You know how people are, it's going to be, you know, they started doing these coop kitchens where you'd have, you know, a bunch of restaurants cooking the same kitchen and just have delivery to wherever from this location. And then now you have the high end restaurants where now it's more about, you know, the personal experience and everything that's going on. So in general, that's, that's rotating all around retail, you know?

Nick: Yeah, absolutely. I think on a number of fronts it’s forcing brands and businesses to be a little bit more customer centric, move them forward technologically as well. So, for example, we've got a couple of customers that provide software for restaurants or bars or whatever so that you can pre-order your drinks or food and then you can, you know, right now in the pandemic in London, you can go and pick it up or they'll deliver it. But what's going to happen when things open up again, they're still going to be using this tech, which means that you can pre-order stuff, but that's gonna change how you interact with that business, right? Because maybe you can pre-order before you get to the bar. Maybe you can sit down, pre-order it and someone just brings the drinks or the food. You don't necessarily have to place your order in the same kind of way, so that could be efficient, but it can change the experience. And I think we're going to, it's going to be interesting to see that hybrid model when things start opening up, because tech moves pretty fast in some of those industries.

Brandon: What do you think the future looks like in payments? Like as far as tech moving fast goes right? Like are we going to see more regulations that are just going to continue to tighten things down? You know, have you heard of any cool innovations or anything like that coming down the pipe?

Nick: So if you look at the global landscape, there's more and more payment options opening up, you know, specific to local markets. And so if you typically look at the kind of the card as the like, that was the previous way that most people are going to pay for things online, even if if they're using a wallet on their phone, you know, the card is driving the cash that's in that digital wallet, but now in Europe we've got things like open banking, which is effectively kind of disrupting that card industry. And so the transaction costs are a lot cheaper. You're getting those instant payments going between banks now, and you're getting a lot more transparency and kind of structured approach to those APIs so that the kind of rails are changing. Payments are getting cheaper, getting easier, getting more transparent for everyone in the chain to be honest. And then of course you've got the Bitcoin fans and all the crypto currency guys, you know I still haven't paid for a beer with Bitcoin yet, but...

Brandon: Is that you're sort of like, benchmark for when it's gone mainstream?

Nick: Yeah, well yeah, maybe. I think maybe beer is going to be the commodity, I'm gonna be paying for other things with beer. That'll be it. But yeah we'll have to see. I think that just hasn't. I mean it will be really interesting. I saw what was it... Venezuela or one of those countries has, like, switched out there national currency.

Luis: Sergeant. I think it was Argentina. No?

Nick: Maybe Argentina, yeah. Like they switched out their national currencies with Bitcoin or a digital cryptocurrency but, like, it's coming down the track, and it's going to be hitting the mainstream and that's going to really shake things up. I think it's changing people's relationship with money and how they pay for things though which is a bigger conversation which we can get into. I don't I don't necessarily have the right answer for it, but I think the way in which we understand and treat money is changing dramatically. We have a different relationship than we used to have with it.

Luis: So what do you think about, like, in what sense do you mean that? As far as, like, the kind of respect that we have for money? The way it goes in between people as far as consumers are concerned or?

Nick: Well I think I think by having a digital currency or even when the fact that we don't even touch money anymore, I mean I don't know what it's like where you guys are, but I honestly... I walked down the street and I don't have money to give to homeless people because I literally don't have to carry cash. I can't remember the last time I had cash. And so when you're spending, and you're not spending physical money, you haven't got that 100 bucks in your wallet and you can't see I've only got 50 left, I've got 20 left. You're just driving that consumer mindset, right? So your attachment to the things that you're purchasing, actually, you could argue, is becoming less.

Brandon: How can, like, cryptocurrency ever really be mainstream though? This is something that's bugging me about it for a while, right? Like the whole concept is that it's decentralized, right? That there's no central authority governing how the currency operates. But in order for it to be like a government currency or to have mainstream adoption, you know, the powers that be are going to have control, right? That's just there's no way around it. So wouldn't that just kind of, like, defeat the purpose of even going that route with blockchain versus, like, we have ledgers now, they're just not public.

Nick: Yeah. And I think, I mean, what you're seeing with big tech in general is actually them becoming as powerful as governments and, this in effect is that, you know, the democratization is good, the transparency is good, but at the end of the day, you've got to have national states looking out for people. Otherwise, the gap between the rich and the poor is, is we're gonna end up in the Hunger Games basically. You know, it's just, but I don't know, I don't know the answer. But on one hand it is really dangerous because it's so decentralized that it's almost out of regulation, it's out of control. No one, no one really knows it becomes that other market. I'm not saying we're in a great state right now, um, depending on your socialist versus capitalist persuasion but you know, it's a shift and I don't know the answer.

Brandon: Yeah it's wild. I uh I got into trading Bitcoin and alt coins a few years back and, you know, got pretty involved with it. And the swings are so crazy and so drastic compared to something like the stock market. Like you can you can go to bed and wake up the next morning and either lose or gain 15 grand, and, you know, off of like 300 bucks, you know and it's crazy and um... you know maybe not quite that big of a swing overnight, but you get what I'm saying. Like, compared to the stock market it's like, it moves so quickly if you're not paying attention. I mean I've heard horror stories of people you know who have taken out a second mortgage on their house and dumped it into Bitcoin right before the crash and, you know, it's just wild the volatility there.

Nick: Yeah and I think as long as it remains volatile like that, it can't get anywhere near the mainstream, it just can't.

Brandon: Everybody is too scared. 

Nick: Everyone's too scared. By the way, don't put your house... 

Brandon: Yeah

Nick: I mean it's kind of like a bet right, where effectively you're betting on a football game and you're like, I'm gonna put my house on this because you know, the 49ers, they're going to kill this. Um but you never know. Never bet more than you can lose. But it is a gamble right now.

Brandon: I like, how you adapt your references, by the way

Nick: Yeah. I'm all over the US things. Yeah,

Brandon: You're doing great. Like, I don't think I could do even near as well, the other direction.

Nick: Well, look, it's easy, like you've totally infiltrated our world, basically watch US Shows the whole time. I don't even know who I am anymore.

Brandon: Well, I'll tell you, my wife and I and my son, actually, got really into the Great British Baking Show, which I guess is called something different over there.

Nick: It’s called the Great British Bake Off. That's it. So yeah, even though we're in Britain, we still use the word Britain in the title. 

Luis: Is this on Netflix, or is this just like on a regular tv?

Brandon: BBC? 

Nick: Uh Yeah. 

Brandon: Yeah, it's great. It's cooking competition, it's fantastic. They go outside in the tent and they cook all sorts of awesome stuff. Makes you really hungry.

Nick: Yeah, my wife makes me, I've been through nine seasons of that thing. 

Nick: Yeah, it's pretty quintessentially British, isn't it? So

Brandon: Yeah, I guess they couldn't call it Bake Off here. I think it was Pillsbury owned the trademark. 

Nick: Okay. 

Brandon: And so they had to call it the Great British Baking Show and and the title screens and everything are different and, but they still call it Bake Off on the show, That's how I found out. Because I was like what are they talking about bake off? What is this bake off? Like that's not what this is called. So we get we get the secondhand version after it's been through legal. 

Nick: How do you... do you guys in the US, obviously you guys are educated, outward looking gentleman. You're watching things like Bake Off. Luis, You're not you're not you need some help but don't, you know... How do you get your, how do you come across in the US... the US is so prolific in its media. How do you find new stuff from around the world?

Luis: Oh honestly, I just get it from Netflix. Anything that Netflix kind of like sends to me. I've been watching a lot of like, uh, like German shows, I forgot the name, there's like this one time traveling show. But it's like, you know what I love though? I love the fact that like being from the US. You're in this bubble and then I start to see all this cinema and everything from outside. I'm like, bro, the quality is so sick and some of the stories are just unbelievable better than the shit that we're putting out. Like honestly in the United States a lot of times.

Brandon: You know I don't think there's been an original movie come out in the US in a long time. Everything's a sequel or spin off. In the 90s we had all these great movies come out which, I'm not going to name any because then you're all going to judge my taste... 

Luis: We’re already judging you anyway. Don't worry about it. 

Brandon: But then but the 2000s and 2010s and everything like it's all been like you know...

Nick: Transformers six. 

Brandon: Fast and Furious 19. You know like it's all just rebooted over and over. They just re-did Jumanji, you know, and it's like it's a new movie now. It's a different type of movie but it's still Jumanji. They just redid the Jumanji, you know, twice.

Luis: We talked about this with, we had an illustrator from DC/ Marvel in Georges Jeanty, he was on and we talked about how it's like this data driven artistic stuff. That's what you're talking about basically.

Brandon: Yeah they're like this movie will sell tickets let's exactly make thirteen more of them and not come up with new creative stuff.

Luis: Because we know it'll sell X amount and that's okay with us. Just enough to get it across the line.

Nick: Yeah. It's funny isn't it? That this kind of like the better the devil you know idea. This movie has some kind of equity, some kind of brand, some kind of audience, we and you know like the diminishing returns are just going like that. But we can still rinse that thing a little bit more

Luis: That’s exactly it. You remember when, like when it used to be offensive that they would show brands like bands or anything like that. Like, you know, in the music world, like you felt like this band’s like, oh man, these guys are jokers. They're showing like a Dunkin Donuts cup in their video. They're sellouts now. It's like just rampant product placement. Yeah. I mean I'm old. So that's, that's, that's showing my age,

Nick: Someone's got to pay for it. I mean, the thing is with so much content, right? There's less and less viewers per show and the model has been democratized again, like the whole, the whole Netflix model, you know, there's so many streaming services. Yeah, probably isn't that same kind of revenue per movie that or show that there once was. I mean, there's exceptions. So they've got to put that stuff in there, you gotta pay for it. 

Luis: You were talking about how you had to be creative, you know, uh, in your approach to the market essentially now because of everything that's going on. So what ways were you, you know, what kind of new creative ways are you using to, to approach customers or, you know, retain customers or, you know, what have you?

Nick: Yeah, and I don't know how creative I really am. I mean, you can be the judge, you know, um, but I think there's there's, look, it comes down to the context of customer and, you know, and what you do with that. And I guess that drives some of the creativity. So let me think. So. I was after... I'll give you two examples. I was after a couple of different prospects. They were completely ghosting me. They were based in the UK and I thought, man, this should be easy to contact these guys, you know, and you do have to be careful with GDPR. You can't just go get in their mobile phone number, and ring them up. You can't do that. And of course they're not sitting at their desk because it's pandemic. So you haven't got the direct dial. So, for one of them I went on her facebook profile and, she was a CEO, and she was really into documentaries. I can't quite remember how I figured this out, but like... I'm not...this sounds this sounds a bit nuts, but I wasn’t crazy stalking her. But anyway, I had a quick look on her profile. She was posting about how, I'm really into docuseries, got any recommendations. So I made her a Youtube playlist with my top 10 docuseries things and sent over in an email. It was just like, hey I heard that you love docuseries, I heard you were looking for some new stuff. And I did like a little narration. Oh I love this, I love this show because of this. So I sent it over to her and, you know, that's that's one way to book a meeting.

Luis: Listen, that's awesome. Actually I like that, that whole thing is like incredibly like well set up, you know.

Nick: It's like the modern version of the mix tape.

Luis: Yeah, but you know what's cool about it is that, like, you're really taking an interest in the person and I think that's really what, like, wins it over more than anything. That if somebody's really taking that interest in you, I mean, you gotta give him some time, you know? 

Nick: And there's a fine line between, you know, really stalking them and you come across, like a psycho. Um, and actually sending them, that's something quite cool...

Brandon: Tell your daughter hello.

Luis: Screenshots of your front porch.

Nick: Yeah, here's me hiding in the grass. Yeah, no. So that was one example, but another one was, uh, so I'm a big rugby fan myself, and I came across this guy, he was a product owner, a fairly big SAAS company in the UK. He was ghosting me as well, like, I was like, dude, come on, we're about the same age, you know, just tell me that you don't want to hear from me or something, right? Uh, in the end I knew that he liked rugby. I knew that actually he was a kiwi, so he was from New Zealand, which means he definitely liked rugby. And so I sent him, there was, there was an All Black, All Blacks are the New Zealand rugby team, there was an All Black game coming up that week and I was like, this is perfect. So I sent him Amazon vouchers for beer. I bought him like, I remember like probably US, like, 50 bucks worth of beer and I was like, dude, enjoy the game. Like, I know you love rugby, come on, go ABs, go the All blacks and I hope to chat to you soon. He just wrote back, man, I didn't talk to anyone, but I'll talk to you like thanks. So we just chatted about rugby, like, and it was cool.

Luis: That's awesome. So that's like, it's kind of like the slow progression towards a relationship essentially.

Nick: Yeah, I mean, you gotta work it for the person, you know? You can get creative. So some of these outbound sales things, some of those customer success retention things might require a little bit of different creativity. So just, you know, the sky is the limit as long as you're not hiding in people's porches.

Luis: Sending random screenshots, yes.

Brandon: Maybe the bottom of the clouds is the limit.

Nick: But I think, you know what, I think the thing is that tech is so well modeled in terms of the processes now that it's not about necessarily doing the process. Anyone can do the process or anyone can run a sales team in a certain, you know, to a certain degree because the model is there, it's how do you make your life, you're like, you come to work for eight hours a day, how do you make that interesting? And hopefully if you do make it interesting, you do it. You do a good job for the business that you're working for and you enjoy yourself and everyone along the way.

Brandon: So speaking of interesting things and I spent some time in the payments space. Um, what is... what's the most interesting thing that a customer...that you've seen a customer selling? Right? So like, I know, I know we had a really weird ones.

Luis: This could get bad.

Brandon: It was worth a shot. 

Nick: Alright, uh… 

Luis: You don't have to answer that. 

Brandon: An old customer that you don't have now. That you haven't worked with in a year. 

Nick: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I've changed all the names. No, but there was… we have some weird stuff going on. Like I see some weird stuff. But there's, you know, there's horses of courses. There's something out there for everyone. I wish I could remember the name of this business, but the name of this business had the word pig in it. And anyway, it was male fetish stuff, because I was like, what? I can't remember why it popped up. Anyway, because we're doing like millions of, you know, there's millions of payments going through the system. But I can't remember how this custom customer popped up. And I was like, what is that? Anyway, they actually got shut down.

Brandon: Yeah.

Nick: So,there was those guys, and I mean it was an amazing website. I don't know who took those pictures, but I can't get them out of my mind.

Luis: That's it. You’re scarred for life.

Nick: Yeah, So that's probably t the weirdest stuff I've seen that we didn't intentionally work with, but they were using our system. But yeah, I mean, we get people moving ammunition, like selling ammunition between country countries. 

Luis: Can you do that? You can sell between countries like that? I thought you have to be like in country to buy it. You know?

Nick: I don’t know. I mean, it's legit. So… yeah

Brandon: They passed all of the quality checks. 

Brandon: We had a guy, Luis and I'd run a Shopify app for a little while and we had a guy on there who... it's like a brilliant product, right? He basically, you know, like the little earbuds that you can, little foam earbuds you can put in your ears, like neon orange. Yeah. He like... they use them in the military and he bought the like, um, the blanks, they’re big sheets and the machines punch out all of the ear buds and leaves these little holes all through the thing. It looks like swiss cheese and we didn't realize what it was at first, but he's selling them as mats to lay on and look at the stars at concerts and stuff.

Luis: This guy is my hero.

Brandon: You know, you know the margin is gonna be huge. He's basically just like, hey, I'll take your trash from the factory and spinning it around, I thought that's brilliant.

Nick: I mean, that's great. I love that. Like it's, I mean that is ecological, right? That's good for the environment. I'm sure he's making a buck out of it. 

Brandon: And thousands of people are able to lay and look at the stars without getting grass on their bags. It's important here.

Nick: They haven't realized that actually if you lay on them it causes terrible acne. But anyway that's fine.

Brandon: Yeah I imagine you get up and you just have circles all over you.

Nick: I'm sure if it's made out of the FM stuff it's all all good for the body. But yeah I love that. That's cool.

Luis: Some weird stuff with the payment space I'm sure.

Nick: Yeah I mean we see, like, I'm surprised that some of the transactions that we see, you know people spend a, like, I've seen a quarter of a million dollars go go through on a credit card. And you're like wow, man, who's just who did that?

Brandon: Do you want to grab a beer later?

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, that would definitely be breaking like GDPR like...

Brandon: Yeah, we can we be friends right like…?

Luis: Do you guys deal in, like, CBD payments and stuff like that? Because we used to be in the CBD space, like, how is that going over there? 

Nick: Yeah I think the CBD thing is a shifting, a shifting world, I think, and a kind of... with the payment providers that we deal with in the banks, you know, they're constantly changing their view on it. So yeah, we actually get quite a lot of like inbound requests for help to find payment services that accept CBD stuff. And, you know, there's actually not that many vendors and banks and payment processors that will work with CB stuff, still. But in the UK you're seeing more and more of these companies that actually sell CBD stuff on the high street as well, so it's becoming more accessible. They're having to pay through the nose for the card processing fees and stuff like that. And and to be honest, I'm not entirely sure why. So, um yeah, it's... I don't know, what do you guys see? What was your experience selling? 

Brandon: It was a nightmare. So like, we actually, this was one of mine and Luis’s earlier projects before the pandemic. We started this CBD brand and just getting a bank account for, it was almost impossible, right? It's like when you talk about credit card processing, that's one thing, but the credit card processor has to be able to dump money somewhere and if there's no bank account, you're, you know, at square one. So we ended up, um, we ended up essentially like taking the business uh sort of in a different like broader, more broad direction so that we could get a bank account under some of our other services and then have that as, sort of, like a secondary thing that we did instead of the major focus. But yeah, and then and then getting the payment processing, I think I called maybe 100 processors and more than 50. Yeah, I mean it was like weeks like just on the phone like every five minutes with a different, you know, because they all, you know, high risk processors, they all want to sell you, you know, they get their sales guys and they're like, hey, you know, we're gonna change your life, we can, you know, underwrite murder for hire. It's all good, but then you find out like, oh but we need you to incorporate in Nairobi and, you know, and like all this other weird stuff and so we eventually were able to get it all set up but it took us a few months and at the end of the day we were paying big fees, and we did have to deal with the bank account getting shut down, you know, once in the middle of stuff and we had to go and spend up a new account somewhere else. 

Nick: Which is which is nuts right? Because effectively you're a legit business, you're selling a legit product, you're good guys, um, you're not selling to drug lords or pushing coke on the streets, you know you're not doing that stuff. And I suspect, like, for fraud like you were talking about fraud earlier, like I suspect your fraud was, like, would be super low. Like, people legitimately want this stuff.

Brandon: Zero charge backs. 

Nick: Yeah, you're not stealing credit cards to go and buy the load of CBD oil, right? And the other thing is, like, if you can't if you can't process the payment through a kind of pretty regular bank account or merchant account that you'd get on the, you know that a regular business would get, then you're gonna go down the Bitcoin route. You're going to have to find these alternative payment methods and then you and then you're just effectively forced to be in a different economy. That is not particularly well looked after and regulated because you can't operate in the mass economy. It's not helpful. I don't think it's helpful for anyone to do that.

Brandon: Yeah. It's like the cannabis businesses out on the west coast and stuff. They're all cash only. Yeah, it's so dangerous, you know, just walking around like hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash.

Nick: Yeah. Exactly. And for the US Government, it's like, well, Uncle Sam is not getting his tax dollars probably either because it's easy not to do your tax on that, or easier. So, it doesn't help. It doesn't really help, you know?

Brandon: Yeah. So, I got a question for you here. This is like we like to pick out a question to ask people that's, you know, kind of light and now that you've made it a little ways through your beer it may be the right time.

Nick: I'm limber. I'm all limbered up. 

Brandon: All right. So, if you had to be a siamese twin with one other person, which you picked to be stuck with.

Nick: This is one of the questions that you need to warn me about. Partly because I might say something ridiculous. 

Luis: That’s okay. You can edit

Nick: I'd probably be, like, with Dwayne Johnson or something.

Brandon: Yeah.

Nick: Well this is this is the funny, this is the funny part because he would literally carry me around, because I couldn't be like with an attractive lady because I'd be distracted all the time, and Dwayne Johnson is just like, everyone knows Dwayne Johnson, right? The rock.

Luis: He’s probably going to be president, you know?

Nick: Yeah, I hope so. And I'm going to be alongside with him.

Brandon: But, he works out really hard, man. Like I've heard he like, hours and hours, like every day, like, you would be there for the whole thing.

Nick: This is true. There would be a lot of sweat passing down.

Luis: When he what broke that gate down, you'd have to be right alongside with him. Like tell him like throw it over there like, you know,

Brandon: I guess there was no stipulation on, on how you were conjoined. 

Luis: That's true.

Nick: I feel like I'd be more like a backpack. Like I need more warning on these types of questions.

Luis: That's perfect. That's good.

Brandon: Oh man. Oh man, I'm dying.

Luis: Listen, you know, I know that this was an interesting conversation kind of off the cuff. You know, I mean, you know, kind of unknown, but the free form. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for joining us.

Nick: It's a pleasure. Thank you. I think it's great. I love it off the cuff. So it's good.

Brandon: Do you want to drop some URLs out there? Anything for Shuttle? And how can people find out more about you guys?

Nick: Yes. So you can go to shuttleglobal.com. We are expanding this year. If you're like, if you're a quickbooks user, you might end up using one of our apps to get your invoices paid. So yeah, you might find us in different marketplaces, but you know, if you're running a SAAS business, they're the kind of guys that we want to talk to. We want to stitch up this kind of global payments situation and enable tech companies to be able to work globally and acquire customers globally. That's the point of cloud computing. So yeah, shuttleglobal.com. Check it out. You can find me on LinkedIn otherwise, if you want to chat about creative sales, stuff for, you know, my affection for Dwayne Johnson. 

Brandon: Fantastic. All right. So thanks everybody for tuning in. That's it for this Sendlio podcast. You can find more episodes at www.sendlio.com.

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